The FBI investigation into which Larry Franklin stumbled a year and a half ago is a more extensive FBI-led counterintelligence investigation into whether there was a larger pattern of AIPAC passing sensitive US intelligence to Israel. The FBI is investigating whether not just documents but "highly classified materials from the National Security Agency, which conducts electronic intercepts of communications, were ... forwarded to Israel," the Washington Post reports:
For more than two years, the FBI has been investigating whether classified intelligence has been passed to Israel by the American Israel Political Action Committee . . . in a probe that extends beyond the case of Pentagon employee Lawrence A. Franklin, according to senior U.S. officials and other sources.
The counterintelligence probe, which is different from a criminal investigation, focuses on a possible transfer of intelligence more extensive than whether Franklin passed on a draft presidential directive on U.S. policy toward Iran, the sources said. The FBI is examining whether highly classified material from the National Security Agency, which conducts electronic intercepts of communications, were also forwarded to Israel, they said.
. . .
National security adviser Condoleezza Rice and her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, were apprised of the FBI counterintelligence investigation of AIPAC as a possible conduit for information to Israel more than two years ago, a senior U.S. official said late yesterday.
Of what place in this larger investigation the Franklin case plays, the Post reports, it is "coincidental":
The investigation of Franklin is coincidental to the broader FBI counterintelligence probe, which was already long underway when Franklin came to the attention of investigators, U.S. officials and sources said.In the Franklin probe, a law enforcement official said the government does not expect to bring charges against anyone this week or next. U.S. Attorney Paul McNulty in Northern Virginia, whose office is handling the case, is continuing to examine the evidence gathered by the FBI, the official said. Officials have said Franklin is cooperating with the authorities. Attempts to reach him at his office and home over several days have been unsuccessful.
The FBI's counterintelligence investigation was underway for some time before the Franklin case was brought to the U.S. attorney's office, which happened fairly recently, according to a source knowledgeable about the case.
In Thursday's paper, the New York Sun's Eli Lake reports that no arrest will be forthcoming in the Franklin case for at least three weeks; a grand jury is being selected now:
The New York Sun has learned that the FBI investigation into Mr. Franklin and the alleged leaking of a draft Iran policy paper may be significantly scaled back.According to sources familiar with the investigation, the U.S. district attorney
in charge of the probe, Paul McNulty, has ordered the FBI not to move forward
with arrests that they were prepared to make last Friday when the story broke
on CNN and CBS. "He put the brakes on it in order to look at it," a source
familiar with the investigation told the Sun. "To see what was there. Basically the FBI wanted to start making arrests and McNulty said 'whoah, based on what? Let's look at this before you do anything.'"Mr. Franklin's security clearances were revoked in June, according to administration officials, and the FBI has tailed two staff members of the
American Israel Public Affairs Committee for at least a year. Early press
reports alleged Mr. Franklin passed the draft policy paper to those Aipac
officals. . .Mr. McNulty was only assigned the case by Attorney General Ashcroft last Friday
when federal agents came to Aipac's offices in Washington to request files and
hard drives. "Ashcroft wanted to make sure this case was being handled
properly," the source familiar with the probe said. "I would not expect any
action on this for at least three weeks." This source added that a grand jury
is now being selected, but it was likely the charges, initially reported as
espionage, would be scaled back to the mishandling of classified information.
Both of these articles would seem to indicate that not Franklin but AIPAC is more the center of this larger investigation; and that Franklin, who apparently has been cooperating with the Bureau for several weeks, may have been used by the FBI to gather further evidence in that case. The political implications of the allegation that AIPAC was the real target of the FBI investigation would seem to be very serious. But I am sure at this point we don't know even half this story, and our Venn diagrams will need to be redrawn again.
Update: The Forward has a very interesting article on Aipac and the existential struggle for an organization representing the interests of pro-Israel Americans not to cross the line into behaving as a lobbying organization for Israel.
Update II: This report by NBC's Jim Miklaszewski is important. Why might Israel spy on the US? Because it considers Iran's nuclear threat of such great national security importance, and Israel was afraid that the US wouldn't ultimately be willing to act:
U.S. government sources confirm to NBC News that the Israeli diplomat suspected of receiving U.S. secrets is Naor Gilon — political advisor to the Israeli embassy in Washington.Gilon was already under surveillance by the FBI when he was reportedly spotted at a meeting with Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin, who's under investigation for possibly passing classified information to the Israelis on the Bush administration's policy debate over Iran.
At least two members of . . . AIPAC are also under investigation. Armed with a search warrant, the FBI seized documents and e-mail records from AIPAC headquarters in Washington last week.
. . .
But why might Israel spy on the U.S.?
Gilon is also identified as a specialist on Iran's nuclear program. Iran's recent announcement it was resuming enrichment of uranium, and its potential to produce nuclear weapons is of grave concern to both Israel and the U.S.
But experts say Israel fears that, ultimately, the U.S. won't be tough enough in attempting to halt any possible weapons production.
For readers of this site, you will know this has been a subject I have been hammering to death for several weeks . . .
Update III: Thanks to Slate's Fred Kaplan for the citation.
I'm sorry, but there's no struggle within AIPAC: they have for decades spied for Israel, or passed on reports of spies.The Israeli spy network in the US has been around since 1948, and is well known to anyone who'd care to look. It's also well known that nothing, other than token punishment, will be done about it.
Posted by: Dick Fitzgerald at September 2, 2004 12:25 AMInteresting timing on the McNulty appointment. Do you have any sense of his reputation? The only thing I found in a plain Google search was this Virginia case (http://tinyurl.com/594tl) about GOP eavesdropping, and though there's lots of charges and counter-charges, that could easily just be local politics.
Posted by: tatere at September 2, 2004 01:04 AMA backstory to all this is who leaked the investigation to Lesley Stahl on Friday in order to blow the investigstion to bits; or was Stahl given a scoop by the FBI that was to be reported as arrests were about to be made, but the arrests were aborted by Ashcroft through McNulty, and Stahl received word too late to "stop the presses" on the story; or, when Ashcroft took it upon himself on Friday to nix the arrests that were planned, someone close to the case blew it to the press in anger; or, Stahl has a 'mole' in McNulty's office; or, Stahl was tipped by AIPAC as the FBI visited and she started working her sources.
Note all the action on Friday when the case was leaked.
1. "On Friday, F.B.I. agents visited the two officials of the group [AIPAC], Steven Rosen, the organization's director of foreign policy issues, and Keith Weissman, one of its experts on Iran, said Nathan Lewin, a lawyer for the pro-Israel lobbying group, known as Aipac. The interviews took place about the same time that news organizations began reporting the existence of the F.B.I. counterintelligence investigation, officials said. The F.B.I. interviews were halted when each of the men asked to be represented by a lawyer before answering more questions." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/01/national/01inquire.html
2. "According to sources familiar with the investigation, the U.S. district attorney
in charge of the probe, Paul McNulty, has ordered the FBI not to move forward with arrests that they were prepared to make last Friday when the story broke on CNN and CBS. 'He put the brakes on it in order to look at it,' a source
familiar with the investigation told the Sun. 'To see what was there. Basically the FBI wanted to start making arrests and McNulty said ''whoah, based on what? Let's look at this before you do anything.''" (NY Sun, Thursday 9/2)
3. "Mr. McNulty was only assigned the case by Attorney General Ashcroft last Friday when federal agents came to Aipac's offices in Washington to request files and hard drives. 'Ashcroft wanted to make sure this case was being handled properly,' the source familiar with the probe said." (NY Sun, Thursday 9/2)
[Apparently panic set in as Ashcroft saw the political implications of espionage arrests before the convention and nixed them, although some damage occured as the story was leaked anyway possibly as a politically motivated counter to Ashcroft politically motivated actions.]
ASHCROFT
Isn't Ashcroft placing himself in some political and perhaps legal danger if he stops an FBI investigation that seems to involve high level espinoge in the NSC and the DOD? McNulty, of course, can just say, "Hey, the boss told me to do it!"
Posted by: wgl at September 2, 2004 03:28 AMInteresting that Mr. Fitzgerald knows so much about clandestine organizations here in the U.S. Let's see, what's more likely: (1) Mr. Fitzgerald has discovered a massive spy network being ignored by our leaders who are controlled by Zionist overloards; OR (2)Mr. Fitzgerald is a frustrated left-wing crank whose crackpot anti-Semitic beliefs have led to total rejection in life? That's a tough one.
Posted by: J. Sus Nessam at September 2, 2004 09:33 AMNotice how the press is whipping the tension up by choosing the words. The Israeli contact of Mr. Franklin "is believed to be" Naor Gilon, like Gilon or Israeli government deny this claim. In fact, Gilon came forward in just about any news organization possible, claiming that, indeed, he met with Franklin and exchanged views with him - as he supposed to do.
If anything, this case smells more and more of anti-Semitic witchhunt. Notice the logic of the good people in FBI: "Hmmm... We should investigate the news leaks about Iran policy. Where to start? I know! Let's put a tail on this Jew diplomat and his friends in this Jewish lobby! Yeah!"
Indeed, Iran is a subject of obsession in Israel. Iran develops nuclear arms and intends to use them to wipe Jewish state off the map. Anyone who calls himself "friend of Israel" should be obsessed with Iran, too. This is not a matter to leak to newspaper. Moreover, why after the Pollard disaster will Israel want to compromise its most effective tool in Washington - AIPAC?!
The Pollard affair was borne out of conviction in Israel that American spymasters aren't sharing with the Jewish State pieces of intelligence vital for its survival. Pollard provided Israel with hard data, not with vague policy drafts. Those are simply not needed.
To sum up - those are the truly hard questions which need to be asked:
1. Why were the counterintelligence resources of the FBI diverted to mount an operation against America's closest ally?
2. Who in the FBI wanted to make those unwarranted arrests, and having his ambition twarted, leaked out the whole business?
3. Why no such investigation occured in the past, when classified information was passed to the "friendly" governments by Clinton administration?
This is the crux of the matter, not some pulp fiction of Bond variety.
Posted by: Arik at September 2, 2004 10:51 AMAnswers:
1. There is a difference of opinion in the gov't whether AIPAC is working for Israel's interests or the US's. "Close allies" don;t always have mutual interests. After the Chalabi debacle, in which some Israelis were intimately involved, the intel services are concerned when they see the same pattern developing with Iran. More to the point--why were resources diverted from catching bin Laden?
2. Not so clear who did the leak, and whether its purpose was to alert the targets or prevent the investigation from being swept under the rug.
3. With the Iraq war having consumed nearly 1000 American lives and $200 billion, with the WH burning agents and playing various double games, and with our military in shambles, this has become much more serious than a parlor game. The prospect of taking on a country three times the size of Iraq has to have more than a few folks in Washington owrried.
Posted by: Mimikatz at September 2, 2004 11:32 AMVery funny site and comments! Can I link mine to your and vice versa?
www.americantraitor.us
--Lars K
Posted by: Lars Kabutnik at September 2, 2004 11:47 AM"our military in shambles"
Good God, where do you get your information? Our military is as strong as it's ever been. It has just won two major wars, is exceeding recruiting goals, has as much weaponry and material as it could possibly need for the next ten years and is developing next-generation technology even as you write about that which you do not know.
Maybe you'd like to rebuild it to the strength it was under hollow army expert Jimmy Carter.
Oh, and incidentally, only extremist left and right wingers, conspiracy-mongers and know-nothings are talking about a coming military confrontation with Iran.
Posted by: J. Sus Nissam at September 2, 2004 12:02 PMMcNulty is a Bush partisan/political hack. See attached from his bio (url below, comments in parenthesis): "Mr. McNulty directed President Bush's transition team for the Department of Justice and then served as Principal Associate Deputy Attorney General (Ashcroft's right hand man)......He was Chief Counsel and Director of Legislative Operations for the Majority Leader of the U.S. House of Representatives (Dick Armey). He is perhaps best remembered by the law enforcement community for the eight years he served with the House Subcommittee on Crime, first as Minority Counsel and later as the Chief Counsel. (For then-Rep. Bill McCollum, who just ran and lost a senate primary in Florida, and was also an impeachment manager against President Clinton)" Also was a spokesman for House Committee on the Judiciary Republicans to promote the Clinton impeachment.
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/vae/biography.html
here we go again. anit-semi code word is being thrown around to intimidate investigators and whoever complain about Israel.
Are these guys from the pentagon working on behalf of US interests or Israel ? Are Franklin, Wolfie, Rummy and the neo-con cabal supposed to be on our side, the great US of A ? Apparently not. I should have called them traitors in fact.
What has Israel done for the US besides selling nuclear technology to everyone?
What has Israel done for the US besides selling weaponry technology to everyone?
Should I go on? Oh, I am an anti-semite now.
Posted by: jon at September 2, 2004 12:43 PMJon:
I suspect you aren't just "now" becoming an anti-Semite.
Posted by: J. Sus Neesam at September 2, 2004 12:52 PMThe choice in the world today IS NOT, "You are either with US, or against US!"; it IS, "You are either with Israel, or against Israel." Security in this world depends on how serious the world is in insuring the security of Israel. Better you provide for Israel, than to throw Israel to the wolves, for Israel shall lash out at all in its final throes. We have not forgotten!
Posted by: Samson at September 2, 2004 03:11 PMGreat article on "Franklin Affair," with much that hasn't yet been properly aired. Further grist for the mill. See,
http://www.thisisrumorcontrol.org/node/view/479#more
Posted by: Carswell at September 2, 2004 05:23 PMThe anti-Semite label is ridiculous. Israel is a country, and not all of its residents are Jews.
J. Sus Neesam writes, "Interesting that Mr. Fitzgerald knows so much about clandestine organizations here in the U.S."
Everyone is starting to get the picture, Mr/Ms Neesam. And it is not pretty. It is also not anti-semite. It is shock and dismay at the behavior of a COUNTRY that is suppose to be our ally and to whom we supply an inordinate amount of aid and technology.
Please read this article which details the various investigations related to most of the top neocons in the past. This article also gives some additional details related to the present investigation that I haven't seen anywhere else. Not sure where they have come from but the most serious issue is recent illegal transfer of military software and related technology to Israel who in turn sold it on the black market.
www.lewrockwell.com/ips/lobe122.html
Posted by: karol at September 2, 2004 06:31 PM"The anti-Semite label is ridiculous. Israel is a country, and not all of its residents are Jews."
Being obsessed with Israel, as you seem to be, while each and every one of its neighbors is a hostile, dictatorial, oppressive terror-state to whom you give passes, calls into question your motives. And when you start to reply about the amount of aid we give Israel (a modern, pluralistic democracy), remember that we give the anti-democratic, anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-semitic, racist Egyptian regime $2 billion per year.
Not all Israelis are Jews, but Israel is the world's only Jewish state. Why are you picking on the world's only Jewish state? Be honest. You have a problem with Jews, just like the nutjob you cite, Lew Rockwell.
"Everyone is starting to get the picture"
Really? I wonder why that hasn't translated into negative poll numbers for Israel. Polls consistently show 60 - 90 % support for Israel in the U.S. Perhaps that's a result of the Jew-controlled media. Or maybe when you say "everyone" you mean Jew-obsessed terror enablers such as yourself.
Posted by: J. Sus N'isam at September 2, 2004 06:49 PMSamson, you are threatening the United States of America with nuclear attack.
The US Navy is tracking all your submarines. Twelve minutes after the order is given all of them would be gone. Much quicker if they're in missile range of the US coast. Your land-based nuclear sites wouldn't last much longer. We are US patriots and we haven't forgotten the US Liberty.
We've given you billions of dollars a year, year in and year out, we've given you our veto in the UN and we've protected you fromi all attempts at peace talks that we didn't initiate ourselves. We gave you everything you needed to win in 1973 after you'd already lost. We gave you nuclear technology and advanced weapons technology, binary poison gas and germs that nobody else has. Without us israel probably would not exist today. At best you'd be a poor third-world nation that couldn't afford advanced weapons.
Don't threaten us. It isn't polite.
Gosh, J. Thomas appears also to be incredibly hostile to Israel. I wonder why that is. Does Mr. Thomas dislike democracies? Does Mr. Thomas have a problem with modern, Western-style nations whose people support the U.S. by more than 85%?Hmm, what else is it about Israel that sets it apart from the rest of the nations in the area....I wonder.
Or perhaps Mr. Thomas has a complex, for whatever reason, that compels him to demonstrate his manliness by emphasizing our nation's obviously superior military might. My, J. Thomas, you live in a country that could defeat a tiny nation of 6 million people? What big torpedoes you have.
Posted by: J. Sus Neeisam at September 2, 2004 07:05 PMJ Thomas writes: We gave you nuclear technology.
Wrong again, J Thomas. We did not give them nuclear technology. France funded the Dimona nuclear reactor after Israeli scientists designed much of the French nuclear power program for them.
We had nothing to do with it.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 2, 2004 07:54 PMSoCalJ certainly has that one right.
Posted by: Haggai at September 2, 2004 08:04 PMI really shouldn't do this again, but...
J Thomas writes: Without us israel probably would not exist today. At best you'd be a poor third-world nation that couldn't afford advanced weapons.
I don't know where you get your information - but it's obviously not from a very credible place.
Here's the State Deptartment's statistics on the Israeli economy:
Economy (2002)
GDP: $117.4 billion (2002 estimated).
Annual growth rate: 1.2% (2003).
Per capita GDP (2002): $19,500.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3581.htm
Subtract the $3 to $4 Billion in aid we give them from their GDP, and their per capita goes down a tic.
You think that would turn the $19,500 per capita GDP into something resembling a "poor third-world nation"?
And those numbers are in the midst of a war.
Belguim, living in total peace and with completely unhostile neighbors, has a per capita GDP of $21,000.
Spain's per capita GDP is the same as Israel's, and they have no existential threats to fend off, not to mention quite the headstart on Israel as a country.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 2, 2004 08:29 PMSocal, most of the lsraeli nuclear physicists and technicians were trained in the USA. We gave them the technology, france gave them some of the materials. Some of the materials may have been stolen from the USA, the last I heard the investigations about that were inconclusive.
>Gosh, J. Thomas appears also to be incredibly hostile to Israel.
Well, no. I am rather hostile to people who threaten nuclear attack on my country. I'm sure you'd feel similarly if it was your country being threatened.
It isn't a matter of manliness any more than invading iraq was, when we thought they might become a nuclear threat. Silly trolls like Samson are only blowing smoke, but if israel ever threatens the USA for real with their nukes, those nukes aren't going to last an hour.
Don't threaten the USA. If you want to nuke us you'd better just do it and not give us any warning first.
I should add, I'm sure Israel doesn't want to test what would happen to their economy if we stopped giving them aid, but just by way of example (I've had this debate before with abb1 over at MY's blog), let's look at Turkey.
Turkey, which some people want to include in the EU, has a GDP of $3,383 (that's roughly $15,000 less than Israel's).
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3432.htm
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 2, 2004 08:37 PMJ Thomas, got a question for you.
You read Indymedia/IMC (or whatever it's called) alot, right?
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 2, 2004 08:51 PMWerner von Braun gave us all big missiles. And my missile's bigger than your missile. And Catholics have thick Missals. And Albert Einstein gave us atombombe. But let's talk about Julius & Ethel Rosenberg, first!
Posted by: Derriere at September 2, 2004 08:58 PMJ Thomas is an Anti-Semite!
There, I said it, and it still works!
He'll shut his trap now, I bet!
I think the gist of the situation is lost. The Likudnites operating within the US government are an idealistic bunch who threaten the entire US system. They're proponents and pushers of pro-Israeli policy before they're proponents and supporters of Democracy. They skirt checks-and-balances; they operate in rogue fashion. Israel's needs and desires are not those of USA. Support is one thing, but manipulating policy to effect Israel's desires, while covering this up from the American people is treasonous.
Israel is the only Jewish state. That's well and good. Why are the Israelis so against giving the Palestinians THEIR own state?
Ludicrous. If these people in positions of power are working for a goal that is not publicized to the American people as a whole, then STOP COVERING IT UP and BE OPEN ABOUT IT. It has nothing to do about anti-semitism. It has everything to do about transparency in government and honesty with the citizens WHO ELECT THESE OFFICIALS.
Posted by: dqueue at September 2, 2004 09:06 PM"Israel is the only Jewish state. That's well and good. Why are the Israelis so against giving the Palestinians THEIR own state?"
Uh, dqueue, perhaps you're too young to remember, but in 2000, the Palestinians were offered their own state with the equivalent of 100% of what they purported to demand. They turned it down, refused to continue talking peace and instead continued their war against Israeli civilians. It is the Palestinians who don't want their own state as long as Israel continues to exist.
Come to think of it, in fact, the Palestinians have been offered their own state repeatedly. They always turn it down. I guess you agree with them that there can be no "Palestine" as long as Israel exists.
Oh, by the way, more than 60% of the Israeli people support the creation of a Palestinian state. So you have no idea what you are talking about.
Posted by: J. Sus N'sam at September 2, 2004 09:18 PM"STOP COVERING IT UP and BE OPEN ABOUT IT. It has nothing to do about anti-semitism. It has everything to do about transparency in government and honesty with the citizens WHO ELECT THESE OFFICIALS."
Nobody is covering anything up. You, perhaps one of the least clever persons on the Internet, managed to find out that "The Likudnites operating within the US government are an idealistic bunch who threaten the entire US system." Imagine what smart people know!
Posted by: J. Sus Nissam at September 2, 2004 09:20 PMSocal, traditionally the economic shortcut is to figure that economies do exponential growth, that it's easier to grow at 1% a year for 5 years than it is to grow 5% in one year.
Our few billion dollars a year (a number which is very hard to compute since the sources obfuscate it) has often been more than 3% of the israeli GDP. If we spent 20 years giving israel 3% of GDP, and that translated to exponential growth, israel's GDP today would be close to double what it would be otherwise. But we've been doing that for 40 years. When our aid is *more* than their growth rate, it looks like they'd likely shrink if the aid was reduced.
Throw in that we guarantee israel's oil supplies. Without us giving them the oil they'd need a war to take it and then they'd be stuck guarding pipelines.
Without us, israel would be at best a poor third-world nation, a bit richer than their neighbors because they have the best land, a bit poorer because they'd have to put so much of their meager resources into the military.
Of course, I'm saying this as if it was inevitable. There's always room for innovation. Before 1967 one of israels main exports was cut diamonds after they imported the uncut diamonds. There are lots of ways to bring in foreign exchange when you have no resources. Given the capabilities they'd need, one obvious choice would be for israel to export mercenaries.
Or, say that in 1967 or earlier israel came to an agreement with palestinians. Perhaps a more-or-less-secular government, with a jewish and an arab tribune who each got a veto. Give back some land, offer a fair price for other land (maybe in the form of bonds or company stock). If there was general prosperity then the old disputes wouldn't be as important. And with a smaller population the water shortage wouldn't be felt as acutely. Resolve the palestinian problem and the other nations wouldn't be such an issue. Export machinery to them, as they develop repair and spare parts and competing industries, go on to more advanced products they couldn't have afforded before. Israel might have developed the whole region, and with economic development the doctrinal disputes would be less important. The middle east might have become generally prosperous, with israel leading the way. Maybe a lot better off than they are now, doen without US aid. I can't really claim that any one alternative would be inevitable.
Also, the exponential growth model is oversimplified, an econ 101 thing. Usually foreign aid doesn't have the same result as indigenous growth, often foreign aid has no continuing effect on GDP. Military aid to israel ought to have no effect on GDP unless israel can sell something from it. So when I assume that US aid actually helps israel to develop, I'm assuming they use the aid far more effectively than most. This seems reasonable to me, but I'm not presenting any realistic analysis to prove it.
I hope you can see the reasoning behind my assertion that US aid has made the difference for the israeli economy, even though our ($3 billion? $12 billion?) aid is only a small fraction of their GDP.
Again, this is probably another mistake.
But dqueue asks: "Why are the Israelis so against giving the Palestinians THEIR own state?"
Why were the Egyptians and Jordanians, who had the West Bank and Gaza from 1948 to 1967, "so against giving the Palaestinians THEIR own state?" I mean, they had the land for 20 years and didn't create a Palestinian state on that land. Why do you think?
The Israelis couldn't create a Palestinian state on the land in 1967, because at a meeting in Khathoum on the heels of the war, the Arab League decided that there would be "no peace, no recognition, and no negotiation" with Israel.
There's been plenty of intransigence on both sides since then.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 2, 2004 09:24 PMEl dqueue,
Apparently you don't understand how the Chutzpah works, and frankly I don't expect you to. Basically America is an easy touch for the Chutzpah, its got you all tied in knots. Who's on first? And honesty, schmonesty, its for schmucks!
Posted by: Josh at September 2, 2004 09:25 PMSocal, no, I've never looked at Indymedia that I remember. There have been a variety of blogs etc that I've looked at briefly and left a message or two on, so it's possible I may have looked at it, but I don't remember doing so.
Why do you ask?
da goys ain't gonna beat da joos in no battle of wits. they never have, never will, and that's da main reason dey resort to da auntie semight thingy. dumb peasants!
Posted by: schlock at September 2, 2004 09:32 PMJ Thomas writes: "But we've been doing that for 40 years."
30 years, actually.
you write: "Or, say that in 1967 or earlier israel came to an agreement with palestinians. Perhaps a more-or-less-secular government, with a jewish and an arab tribune who each got a veto"
See my above post on Kharthoum. You write that as if it was a possibility. It was not. Meanwhile, 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, with 8 members of the Knesset and a Supreme Court Justice. Last I heard, none wanted to move to Ramallah or Jericho.
you write: "So when I assume that US aid actually helps israel to develop, I'm assuming they use the aid far more effectively than most."
Anything that helps your cause, sure, why not?
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 2, 2004 09:35 PMFor just an intro to the hist. of Israel's spying on the US, and the US doing virtually nothing about it, cf. Sam Husseini, "Israeli Espionage Against the US," COUNTERPUNCH 9-30-04 (http://www.counterpunch.com).
Posted by: Dick Fitzgerald at September 2, 2004 09:37 PMJ Thomas,
I ask because your comments on this thread remind me of a particular article I've seen there.
And for the record, I'm ignoring that idiotic post (posted at 9:03) directed at you. Believe me. I hate it when a discussion devolves like that - and believe me, I've been called much worse by nutters on certain blogs. I disagree with you on a lot, but I've enjoyed our conversations here and at MY's blog.
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 2, 2004 09:42 PMJ Thomas writes: "But we've been doing that for 40 years."
Socal writes: "30 years, actually."
I was under the strong impression that direct US government gifts to israel were insignificant before 1967 (when israel was a poor third-world nation). They ramped up after the war, there was a tremendous lump of aid in 1973, and then settled down to a more or less steady amount of direct aid at about $3 billion a year, with a varying amount of guaranteed loans that are never ever repaid and a varying amount of other aid.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
Putting it at 1967 would be 37 years. Putting it at the time the publicly-known figure stabilised would be 31 years. No big deal.
And for the record, I'm ignoring that idiotic post (posted at 9:03) directed at you.
I thought that was sarcasm.
Anyway, back to the original topic, I don't understand why the FBI would think they can get away with investigating this stuff. It makes sense the head of the FBI will have to resign and a number of FBI careers will be ruined, for nothing. There will be no investigation allowed and in the end nobody will follow it except the usual conspiracy buffs.
We won't see Congress pass a law that every american civil servant must show any israeli civil servant anything he wants to see, but we almost might as well do that and be done with it.
J Thomas: "I was under the strong impression that direct US government gifts to israel were insignificant before 1967 (when israel was a poor third-world nation)."
A poor third-world nation that defeated 4 Arab armies in 6 days. That's a pretty cool poor third-world nation, although I doubt you agree.
In 1967, Israel received about $30 million in U.S. aid.
'68 they got $130 million.
'69 they got $240 million.
'70 they got $120 million.
'71 they got $1 billion.
'72 they got $780 million.
'73 they got $800 million.
The current level aid packages started in '74.
And Mueller will not have to resign over this. Rumsfeld asked for an investigation. If it doesn't lead anywhere, then that's the breaks. The person who leaked the investigation to the press might have to resign, though, if that's found out.
The disappointment on the part of some watching this story fizzle from "imminent arrest of Israeli spy on espionage charges" to "possible arrest on charges of mishandling classified evidence" is palpable and rather sad, IMO. As was the glee expressed upon word of Leslie Stahl's "report."
Posted by: SoCalJustice at September 3, 2004 12:58 AMThanks for the history guidance; admittedly, Middle Eastern history is not a strength of mine. As such, I should have kept to my intended point (and quelled my other opinions) of: this is not an act of anti-semitism.
Personally, I find the policies and beliefs of the Project for New American Century a bit radical and disturbing. I find their prominence in high-level appointments a bit curious. I find the government's tendency to hush reporting of the neocons' activities a bit unnerving.
When the news broke about the investigation, my hopes were elevated, not due to the implication of Israeli spies; rather, due to my belief that the neocons are not operating within the bounds of the law.
Anyhow, I'll try to post more responsibly in the future, and I'll try to bite my tongue and ignore the trolls.
Posted by: dqueue at September 3, 2004 09:03 AMDequie:
"Israel is the only Jewish state. That's well and good. Why are the Israelis so against giving the Palestinians THEIR own state?"
Where in the world do you derive your Imfo from ?
The back of a cereal box ?
Israel offered a peace after the 1948 independance war.Israel offered a peace for land deal after the Six-Day War(1967).
Israel offered a peace after the peace deal with Egypt in 1979
Israel was more than offering in 2000 ! ask Bill Clinton !
Mr Arafat does not want peace because it would destroy his capacity to gather $ 1.3 billion in accounts around the globe. By the way He's Egyptian and not a Palestinian.
Your obsession of Israel tells me something about you.Why don't you start protesting about Taiwan and their lobby of the Usa.How about Sudan and the medias and UN's quiet hush of whats been going on there. Talk about lobbyists !
Why does France still hold onto Tahiti ? Why don't the Russians give back the two northern Islands off Japan back to the Japanese ? Why is Poland smaller in area now than before WW2 ?
I have been in Israel which has more clout than your caveman assessment of what kind of country it is.You bitch because a tiny country is defending itself with Neandrathals like You surrounded by over 200 million. According to you it would only be fair if Israel was weak so it could be destroyed. Tough shit !
J thomas:
"Perhaps a more-or-less-secular government"
What do you think the majority of people and the goverment of Israel are ? 94% secular. Read a little besides IndyMedia . Its about as Religous there as it is in Holland. You've been watching too much of CNN, where every news footage has to have someone Hasidic in the blip. Its like me putting in a shot of a Quaker everytime I show any news from the United States. Oh, I forgot !, they're not BIASED !
J.Thomas:
"a bit richer than their neighbors because they have the best land "
Oh really ? Well the history of Tel-Aviv and the Coastal Plain was started by JEWS in 1903. It was all sand ! Drip -irrigation was not invented by the "Palestinians" who came in droves afterwards because of work. The turn of the 20th century, the land was basically desert except for the Northern Galilee and Haifa and Jaffa in the central part.Go and read Mark Twains account of what he thought of the "Holy land" upon his travellings in the 1800's
Posted by: Earth56 at September 3, 2004 01:11 PM"And Mueller will not have to resign over this."
That's good. I hate it when people get fired just for doing their jobs.
"The person who leaked the investigation to the press might have to resign, though, if that's found out."
Yes, unless they were leaking it *for* the zionists instead of *against* them.
Oh well.
Posted by: J Thomas at September 3, 2004 08:33 PMoh, brother.
Yeah. I love watching the machinations of this story unfold.
"An, an investigation of AIPAC!" "The NEOCONZIONISTLIKUDNIKS are doomed and finally getting their commeupance!" "This is the big one!!"
"Oh wait, Leslie Stahl was misinformed, and didn't have all the facts and overstated the case."
"Hmm... what's that? mishandling of classified documents? No espionage? Damn that Leslie Stahl (who works for the Zionist controlled media, you know!)."
"Hmm. What next? Who benefits? Oh yeah, got it. The NEOCONZIONSISTLIKUDNIKS must have leaked the investigation to stop it in it's tracks!!! Yeah, that's it!!!!"
/then why did they tell Leslie Stahl that an espionage arrest of a Pentagon official - a "spy for israel" was forthcoming? Because they're that sneaky.
sigh.
No worries, I'm sure you have it all figured out.
All non-Zionists will be fired. All Zionists get free condos on the Upper East side, a Ferrari, and a handicapped parking pass.
That's just how it works.
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Apparently J. Sus Nissam has know idea what he/she/they are taling about, as Israel operates under a Parliment form of government that is controlled by the 2% of the population that favors a hardline, Zionist ideal.
Please read - "The most hard-core settlers are impatient messianists, who profess indifference, even scorn, for the state; a faith in vigilantism; and a loathing for the Arabs. They are free of doubt, seeing themselves as taking orders from God, and are an unusually cohesive segment of Israeli society. Hard-core settlers and their supporters make up perhaps two percent of the Iraeli populace, but they nevertheless have driven Israeli policy in the occupied territories for much of the past thirty years." Jeffrey Goldberg/Among the Settlers/The New Yorker/May 31, 2004.
Posted by: C Marie Morris at September 12, 2004 03:43 PMThis is a response to J. Sus Nissam's assertion "Oh, by the way, more than 60% of the Israeli people support the creation of a Palestinian state. So you have no idea what you are talking about."
Apparently J. Sus Nissam has know idea what he/she/they are taling about, as Israel operates under a Parliment form of government that is controlled by the 2% of the population that favors a hardline, Zionist ideal.
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Posted by: C Marie Morris at September 12, 2004 03:44 PMThis is a response to J. Sus Nissam's assertion "Oh, by the way, more than 60% of the Israeli people support the creation of a Palestinian state. So you have no idea what you are talking about."
Apparently J. Sus Nissam has know idea what he/she/they are taling about, as Israel operates under a Parliment form of government that is controlled by the 2% of the population that favors a hardline, Zionist ideal.
Please read - "The most hard-core settlers are impatient messianists, who profess indifference, even scorn, for the state; a faith in vigilantism; and a loathing for the Arabs. They are free of doubt, seeing themselves as taking orders from God, and are an unusually cohesive segment of Israeli society. Hard-core settlers and their supporters make up perhaps two percent of the Iraeli populace, but they nevertheless have driven Israeli policy in the occupied territories for much of the past thirty years." Jeffrey Goldberg/Among the Settlers/The New Yorker/May 31, 2004.
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Posted by: martha at November 23, 2004 12:12 AMNo profit grows where is no pleasure ta'en; In brief, sir, study what you most affect. chuck My tongue will tell the anger of mine heart, Or else my heart, concealing it, will break.
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